Technical Or Fundamental? Which Investor Are You? [Chills 37 Sponsored by FUTU]

Welcome to another Chills with TFC session. In this series, we want to bring on interesting, relevant people to help us learn better from various perspectives. Life is not always about learning from people you already agree with. Perspectives shape a rounder thinker. In our pursuit of the life we love while managing our finances well, our guest for today is a veteran in the financial space with 15 years under his belt with various brokerages. 

He’s actually seen the scene evolve and is now leading the team at FUTU Singapore, which has created a now locally famous Moomoo trading platform in three months. Can you believe it? In three months, the Moomoo app has racked up over 220,000 users with 100,000 clients, where FUTU SG securities account with deposits. Essentially, it means that quite a lot people would actually put money and starting to invest and all that jazz! Shout out to all of you. 

We will also be talking about interesting features that they will be rolling out as they keep driving down this path of enabling the retail investor with technology driven features and resources. Today’s Chills with TFC episode is sponsored by Moomoo, hosted by me Reggie and I am happy to introduce you to Gavin Chia, managing director of FUTU Singapore.

A lot of the investor behaviours are changing these days. Like retail investors… sometimes, I don’t even know whether I can call them investors because they’re more like traders. 

Gavin: They make a lot of trades in the day. 

Reggie: Yeah, they make a lot of day trades. They form blocks together in Telegram or whatever social platform. Even you guys, your platform has a lot of social activity there. 

Gavin: Agree, yes correct. 

Reggie: You are seeing the power of retail investors coming together, whether is it Wall Street Bets or all the subreddits, GameStop, AMC and all those things. Is it changing the way investors play this game? Is it going to change the market in general or is it just a small bunch of people playing around doing their own thing? Is it an anomaly or is this going to be a trend for the future? 

Gavin: For me… This will be the trend for the future. First of all, I’ll touch base on something that is very close to us, which is education. If you look at the education right now, whether you’re in poly(technic) or uni(versity) or even in some of the different countries itself, you will have courses like how to understand the financial ratios. Even some of the courses will be more on analytics. Nowadays, you have a lot of big data courses in university, part-time, full-time or upon graduation you can join. There’s certain course that were skewed towards cryptocurrency. There were certain course that were skewed towards coding for trading.

How I got to know about this because I just graduated from NUS. I started to realize when I talk to some of my friends, whether from China, India, it became a very common thing and they are so much younger than me. They are like in their twenties. I was the oldest in the class. Things are changing and with this I don’t see there’s any other changes. 

I got to say, in terms of the courses, in terms of the things that they are exposing, it has already evolved. I still remember when I was studying in the Singapore uni 20 years ago or maybe more than 15, 18 years ago. Things were very rigid, you just listened to the prof. Prof will gives you some tips. You will pass the lesson, but in terms of financial independence, in terms of educating, in terms of the different products, compared to now it’s so much more common.

Even for the school itself, 18 years ago, if I’m curious about something, especially in terms of investments, in terms of equities, I got to go internet. When you look at it, there’s a lot of “is it true or not true?” If you come to right now, rewind forward with FinTech brokerage and even for us itself, we empower, we equip clients with so many information inside that some clients share with us “it has gotten a little bit too much.” It’s a little bit different and how I foresee… yes, the younger group will be a power of force to reckon with. 

Reggie: You think that because of all this empowerment of all these retail investors coming into the game, it’s really fundamentally changing markets? I have talked to a lot of people and some people think “haiya, retail investors… how big are they?” And some people are like, “no actually, retail investors, if they leverage up, they can be quite a big group also.” You see some of these companies, AMC just milked the whole price increase. They were like “if you are a shareholder, I give you free tickets… do this, do that”. 

You see the change and it’s not unique to AMC. There are a lot of other companies whether it’s some steamboat company… I don’t want to name names but it’s been a strategy for a lot of these companies that are more retail customer facing to get people to buy their shares, be invested and all that. It kind of props up a certain base, because instead of having institutional investors as the base, now you can actually have retail investors to be your base, to hold your company. Is that going to change the markets in general or is it just going to be some sector? Do you guys have some thoughts on it?

Gavin: Yes. If you look on our site just to share a little bit of statistics over here, our Gen Z clients has been growing exponentially and you will be surprised the type of question they are asking. They really know their stuff very well. I believe as much as we talk about education, it’s also the easy access of information right now to these groups of people. 

Last time I believe there’s a lot of talks about, which stock to buy or what? You’ll be surprised by this younger group of people. They know what they want. Some of them when I spoke to them, they are talking about early retirement. One good example is, if you look at the transfer of wealth just to cite an example… 18 years ago, even when I was in uni, I remember I read a textbook that’s… one of the prof even encourage you to buy Pepsi so that you can give it to your son or daughter. That’s how they transfer their wealth, but if you look at nowadays, you look at cryptocurrency for example… the younger groups of people, they have become millions or if not billionaires.

If you look at Bitcoin… if I still remember there were some campaigns for Bitcoin in 2010 where they used 10,000 Bitcoins to exchange for pizza. Just imagine you have 10,000 Bitcoins right now? 

Reggie: Shout out to the pizza seller. 

Gavin: Just imagine right now in terms of the transfer of wealth… is that the traditional way or rather the old way of you buy your shares hold for 10 years, 20 years, and hopefully Coca-Cola, Pepsi will grow and that’s where your wealth as to what is compared right now is very different. Partly, it’s because of COVID-19 pandemic. People are at home, the time spent that they can read through information news, the accessibility of that. 

Another interesting part that we observed was people started embracing technology, because there’s a huge acceleration in terms of technology, in terms of what people want to see because of them staying at home. I got to say when we talk about FUTU or even their competitors, especially in the FinTech, that’s where we are all in the right track. There’s so many things that we can make it even better, faster, just embracing technology. 

Reggie: Are you trying to tell me there is a big shift away from the traditional buy and hold long-term investor kind of thing? There is still the predominant content market I see out there in the personal finance space. 

Gavin: Yes, I can’t really comment in terms of whether there’ll be more people buying long-term or more traders that people buy and sell. What can I say is that there are some people that hold these two strategy together. Longer term, maybe they are looking at REITs (Real Estate Investment Trusts), something that is stable. They built a portfolio. 

It’s very interesting, people have been coming to me to say, “what is the best portfolio?” I got to say when I was talking about portfolio, that was like when I first started out in this line. When you talk about portfolio, that’s where portfolio manager comes in.

Nowadays people, the younger ones are talking to me about portfolio. They have certain amount of money that they would like to put for long term. It can be bond, can be REITs, it can be something that is longer term, but there’s something that they are using for more speculative that they want to have in their portfolio. Other than this scenario where this group of people… there are some that are more on the both extreme end. They buy and hold and there are some who actually trade. 

Reggie: Speculative. 

Gavin: Speculative. But just my own 2 cents worth, my own personal thoughts… the market has been very volatile. Who would know that because of COVID-19, It actually affected some of the sectors and some of the sectors benefitted because of COVID-19 and no one really say this. 

Reggie: What kind of advice would you give to some of these younger people, millennials or gen Z… millennials not very young already… coming into this space? They don’t really want to do the long-term investing kind of thing. Maybe a portfolio construction: you got a core satellite structure, more broad base, longer term on one side, and there’s the other side which is a bit more speculative. What kind of advice do you have for people that are looking to construct portfolio like that? 

Gavin: First of all, when I was talking to some of the portfolio manager, there’s always one word that they will be always be using. That is backtesting. My advice to this group of people is yes, you can construct your best portfolio but look for a platform. Even for FUTU, we do have a paper trading that allows you to do your portfolio, your backtesting. 

Reggie: What is backtesting?

Gavin: Backtesting means for whatever portfolio you constructed, you can actually put it into a testing environment where you wouldn’t have to put your real money inside. So with this backtesting, you will see your return. You will be able to see the results and from there you will know whether it is good to put it on the real market. This is where sometimes you will add in, you will take away some of the counters or portfolios. 

You will try your best to construct something that will be good, that will be better. Maybe there’s a certain percentage of returns that you are looking for. This is where I got to say… my advice is to look for a platform that is able to allow you to support in terms of backtesting. 

Next thing is always be hungry for information as compared to… institutionally, if all of us think of institutional, you’ll be thinking that they should have 6 screens, 8 screens, 9 screens. Why do they have all these screens? Is it because of the information that they need to piece it out at this moment, at this time?

Reggie: What kind of information matter? 

Gavin: First of all, I think it’s very important to understand the fundamental of the companies. If I put it in terms of my personal approach, is always a 60:40. What do I mean by that? It’s always a 60% fundamental, 40% technical. If you look at your institution, you will be seeing them looking at graph, but you will be seeing them looking at Bloomberg. 

To me, knowing the company is very important, even knowing the management or even the style of how they work fundamentally. It can be ratios compared to your competitors or even in terms of knowing who are the major shareholders who are inside this. These are all good, important information… or year on year for the past five years. How are they growing in terms of their revenue? Sometimes, even if you look at the fundamentals, you will see suddenly a surge in terms of profit. Is it a one time gain where they sold off certain assets, and that’s why you see a huge one-time gain?

These are things that fundamentally, we all got to be very sure or rather, it’s something that we can take in comparison or even in terms of PE ratio (Price to Earnings ratio). If the industrial average is 20 times and this company is like 200 times, somehow, it may ring something. 

Reggie: Fundamental matters.

Gavin: Fundamental matters. If you look at technical… 

Reggie: By the way, I just want to add for Bloomberg. For people that don’t understand what is Bloomberg. Actually, the Bloomberg Terminal is quite a wonderful terminal and all the institution investors they use it. All the information is there. They do a lot of deep dives and… but these days information is getting more open, so you can search for a lot of these platforms. We will not name them here, but there are a lot out there when you pay a fraction of what people used to pay for Bloomberg but I think Bloomberg still does a lot of the modeling.

They do very complex modeling evaluation structures and… premium version. At the least, I think as what Gavin has pointed out, information has changed. It’s not about signing up for Bloomberg but it’s really about recognizing that fundamental matters even though you’re a trader. Don’t take extreme ends. Is that what you’re telling me?

Gavin: Yes, and of course for me, it’s always technical and technical is always looking at price, the price movement. We need to have a gauge on what has happened in terms of the price movement for the past 1 year or 5 years, sometimes 10 years. 10 years is a little bit too far for me, given that things are so volatile nowadays.

So 1 year or 5 years, or even a few months, or even… Some of the interesting part is you will start to track some of the price movement because it’s very near the announcement or some counters will move after the announcement. These are all the different characteristic whether from technical point of view, fundamental point of view, it allows you to paint a picture and it will give you… personally, at least for me right now, it paints a complete picture. 

But I know there’s both extreme ends… fundamental, when we look at fundamental. I don’t really care about technical. There’s always a huge debate about this too. Technical is always technical, fundamental is always noise… but my style is always a hybrid about using these two sides. 

Reggie: We interview a lot of people, so we know everyone has their own views. 

Gavin: Yeah. For me, how I look at it is… I totally agree with you. In terms of assessing of information, it’s no longer just from a source. In terms of assessing, in terms of accuracy, in terms of the costs, it’s so much different right now. 

Reggie: From a technical standpoint, what are some of the things that… specifically you think are better to look out for? Are we talking about moving averages? 

Gavin: It really depends on the age… individuals. Sometimes for me, I’ll look at just a simple moving average. Some of them will look at 50 days, 100 days. I’d rather cut it to 21 days or even 30 days. This is of course just one of it. 

I’ll look at the RSI: Relative Strength Index, MACD (Moving Average Convergence/Divergence)… there’s many different indicators. Generally, these are just the basic ones that I believe as a investor, it’s always good to know, good to have. That’s where I believe it will help in terms of your trading journey and even simplify your trading journey.

Reggie: That’s good. Technicians, there are all sorts of ways. Go out and search for it. I’m not a technician but I know some technicians, so I get a little bit of it. Going forward, if you guys as a platform, you are seeing more people trading, you’re seeing more price action, you’re seeing more movement, you’re seeing more people buy, sell, or whatever language you use, how are you guys ensuring that these guys don’t go bust?

Gavin: Very good question. This is where we talk a bit more on the risk side. 

Reggie: Because you also got to manage your bottom line. 

Gavin: Yes! Our risks and of course for clients as well. For us, for those who are aged 18 or below, they will not be able to open an account. Even for those… we do have margin facilities where our clients can do leveraging, but the max leverage was actually up to two times or even… there’s a cap of $50,000.

This will only be open for clients… in terms of age point of view, will be above 21. What I’m trying to say is for those from 18 to 21, there will be no margin. For those who are unemployed, (they) would not have margin. What do I mean by not having margin means for every $1 that they put in, they will be able to trade up to 1$, so it’s all pre-funded account. It’s a little bit unlike the more traditional brokerage where they call it the cash account where based on your payslip, I will be able to give you a limit, a trading limit. It can be $20,000, $30,000, $50,000. 

It really depends on the remisiers. It really depends on the company. For us, just to manage the risk better in Singapore, we only allow clients to trade mostly how much they put in. Of course, some clients have requested for a larger margin. It is all case by case. We are running through very closely, very strictly to make sure that at this time, we are also taking care of clients in terms of the risk. 

Reggie: What is your margin cost? 

Gavin: Margin cost right now, currently we are looking at anywhere from around 3% to 6% per annum. We are trying to bring the costs down and we are trying to work with more banks and we will bring this cost down in terms of the interest rate. 

Reggie: Really?

Gavin: We will.

Reggie: You are going to bring transaction costs down and you are going to bring margin interest down. What is your business model? How are you going to 赚钱 (earn money)?

Gavin: Good question. I think for us, if you look at our model, very interestingly… currently, if you look at our daily active user, it’s actually more than a million a day in terms of our clients who are accessing into our platform, clients who are trading. We feel that because… of course it’s always a bottom line for all brokerage.

It’s just setting up a shop. In terms of cost, all firms, all companies, all shops will have a certain cost. That’s where we talk about profit margin. For us, we would want to bring investment to be made easier to clients and also convenient to clients.

With technology, the interesting part… we actually cut off a lot of costs by embracing technology. That’s also one of the reason why we can keep our cost low, and of course, like what I shared, we really hope to bring this technology or even the platform, the convenience to our clients around the world. With this model, I got to say we are still doing very well.

Reggie: I totally get the part about leaning down your processes so that you don’t really have a lot of overhead. 

Gavin: The interesting part is clients will be able to feel it straight away. For example, if they want to fund the account. I still remember when I want you to fund an account, I needed to do a TT but nowadays with technology, clients will be able to fund their account in 15 minutes. It will be reflected up there. 

No longer a time… that last time I need to… some of my friends would need to call their remisier on the amount they need to fund and it will be reflected 1-3 days later. For us, we may have shared with clients that your funding will be ready 1-3 days. But a lot of clients knows that once they link up with their DDA, which is a Direct Debit Authorization to us, just for one time, for all funding coming in, it will be cited in 15 minutes. 

For withdrawal right now, we are also trying to enhance this technology to make sure that when clients withdraw, it can also be done in 15 minutes. This actually cut off a lot of overhead costs, a lot of human intervention and a lot of time with this technology. That’s where it brings a lot of convenience to clients. 

Reggie: Technology empowerment is one thing, trying to help all these future investors is another thing. Making money is also another thing. It’s a lot of nuances to this thing and ultimately, I think if you guys really want know Moomoo’s models, just go and read their financial statements. It’s a listed company. You can go in and see everything. What is going on? What’s happening inside? 

From an empowerment standpoint, you are taking a lot of what institutional investors used to have to empower the retail guy. You give them all the information, the technology, all these things that they have but how do I use it? As a retail investor, all this information coming down, how should I really use this thing?

What are some institutional knowledge that is more prevalent today that we can all adopt or some interesting models that you’ve observed that retail investors can really consider rather than just DCA (Dollar Cost Averaging) or just PE ratio? All those things are there but what is different now? 

Gavin: Like what I previously shared, if you look at, for the past many years in Singapore, a trading platform is always a platform where you buy, you key in your password. You sell, you key in your password. You withdraw, you key in your password. That’s the main function of a trading platform. 

Now I’m going to say that it’s very different. Right now, we have clients… feedback is getting more and more complex in terms of how they’re going to maneuver our app. What we are coming out or what we have prepared is we are launching many education or even seminars or even clips that allow clients to understand the usage of our Moomoo app in terms of our trading platform.

Yes, you are right. Some of the information, if we look at it, it can be institutional and it was sort of branded as a… “belong to institutions such as…” Even certain things when… I was once a dealer. Looking at market depth, the interesting part is for the US market, we allow clients to see up to 40 levels, 40 levels of market depth. That means for 40 levels of pricing, you are able to see the demand and supply. 

What do I mean by demand and supply? You are able to see how many people are… can’t see how many people but you can see the quantity in terms of people has been putting in terms of the buying and also on the selling.

How do you recognize, is there a buy that is more or selling that is more. How do you know more about that? We have this in terms of capita distribution. We had this interesting over in Moomoo… if you look at the capita distribution, very interesting because we are able to capture, or we differentiate funds, big funds coming in, so we label that as XL, followed by L, and followed by M and followed by S. 

So if you look at S, generally, a lot of retail clients coming in. They’re buying small, they sell more and when you see XL, then you start to realize, boom! In that ring itself, you will be able to see the calculation in terms of capital inflow or capital outflow.

With this itself, you will be able to know with a capital inflow, that means you can say that there’s more buying than selling and people are coming in to buy more than people who are selling it. When you see that there’s a huge capital outflow, that means you will see a lot of seller and this is where for a trader or for someone who is trading, they will know that if there’s a lot of people who are selling. 

For them, they will queue lower in terms of pricing or unless they sense that there’s huge potential to the clients. It’s really depending on clients, they will want to buy straight away. But if I’m someone who is taking profit and I see a huge capital inflow then my point is “Do I want to wait a while?” This is where the capital distribution allows me to see very clearly.

If you look a little bit more below over on your Moomoo app, you will be able to see that it’s actually in the graph format. We track this XL, L, M and S in a graph format. You will be able to see them criss-crossing each other or if not, you will be able to see the graph…

Reggie: I don’t get to see the exact capital size in and out, but I can see who are the big fishes moving?

Gavin: Yes, and you can see the totality in terms of capital in and out, there’ll be 20 million. It will be stated 20 million in, inflow, outflow. This is where it paints the story, in terms of… you will have a good feel about how things are moving and that’s how we bring the information. We make it very easy. We make it very colourful. We make it very clear. 

Some clients are not so much on the technical person. Sometimes, they may not know what is a good price to go in. We do have a… if I remember correctly, there’s this position price distribution, the average in terms of the average pricing, in terms of the selling price, in terms of the buying price. All these are based on data. It’s all calculated over there..

This is where clients will have a good view about… at what price are they going in or not and all these are all calculated based on the pricing or the trading price on that day, on that counter. This is where you also allow clients to… I don’t say… it means we got to go in at this price. 

Reggie: It’s not a miracle pill.

Gavin: Yes, but it is a good indication how you can look at whatever price you are queuing. Is it going to be too far away or it’s too low? With this itself, with the market depth, with all this information, it gives good picture about the stocks, the behaviour, the pattern, what’s happening.

Reggie: That’s interesting. As a retail investor, people got all sorts of weird things that they do in a sense of… the more toys you give them, the more interesting things they will come up with or they will interpret it in a way… maybe I should say we. We will interpret it in a very different fashion.

Gavin: Sure. 

Reggie: I mean, professionals are professionals for a reason, right? They’re trained, they’re disciplined. At least that’s what I hope, that’s what I expect, but as a retail investor, you give them more toys, more interesting things happen. I think we want to take this chance to call out some of these habits, some of these things that you feel you observe within the community of retail investors. Some things you think we should let everybody know, maybe it is not the best way to do it, and just give people some warning. 

Gavin: When it comes to a more complex platform, that’s where things got a little bit more confusing, and where things got a little bit more confusing, you are right. Everybody interpret information differently and so this is one part I like to share with clients is that be very open, and we are always there to help. On FUTU itself, we are also doing our best to come out, to roll out a lot of live seminars, come up with a lot of small YouTube clips that helps clients in terms of answering some of the common enquiries that they have. Regardless of age… open to learning, ask more, learn more. For us, we will always be there to help more. 

Reggie: That’s cool. Going forward, you guys are launching a lot of new features. You’re trying to do a lot new things. Maybe just give us some interesting juices. What is going to come up from you guys? What new features, new products, new things that you guys are developing?

Gavin: Right now, some of the interesting things that we are coming out is… We have expanded the markets, the equity markets that we have. Clients will be able to trade the A-shares. A-Shares would be sometimes… Shanghai and Shenzhen Connect. Some of them will know that… share them Connect, they’ll know that… We are actually opening this up.

This is to allow clients to have access into the China shares. If you look at it, we see there’s a huge interest in this. Some clients have been asking because they see the huge potential in China in terms of technology firms, in terms of the different markets that they have and a lot of us, when we look at Shenzhen, there’s a lot of smart tech firms. That’s why we are launching this. 

We also know there’s a lot of clients that are very keen in terms of options and we recently launched the covered options. Clients in terms of trading options… this is something that I got to say, among the whole Singapore, only Futu has launched the covered option. With covered options, clients will be able to… in terms of risk approach, will be able to protect their portfolio a little bit more rather than just going into buying call put. 

With this itself, we had also launched that. In terms of more products, surely, we are looking at more other products and we want to bring that convenience to clients in terms of the technology, in terms of improving the platform. One of the things that I shared was to actually allow clients to withdraw their funds in 15 minutes.

We also want clients to have a better FX conversion. If you look at the interesting part right now as compared to a more traditional brokerage, we allow clients to convert their currency in the Moomoo app. It’s a little bit different. If you look at a normal local brokerage, normally you will call a remisier. They will give you a fixed rate, that will be a AM rate or PM rate. There’ll be one rate… so in one day there will be two rates. 

But we don’t, we empower clients. Depending on the volatility of the currency, clients will be able to exchange it on our Moomoo app. Clients will be able to benefit. If let’s say there’s a weakening in the US dollar or strengthening in terms of US dollar, all this can be beneficial to clients depending on whether they want to buy or sell the currency itself.

For us, clients will be able to see a better spread, even a tighter spread. It’s not that right now we are charging a very big spread, but we want to make it even better for clients. So these are things that right now, currently we are working at and we will be able to update clients soon. 

Reggie: Pretty cool! Last question about covered calls, covered options. You’re selling covered options, essentially it means instead of me having to open two options, pay double contracts, I just pay one time and I can get the multiple feature. 

Gavin: Yes, correct. 

Reggie: You guys are really doing a lot of interesting thing.

Gavin: We are hearing clients and we want to… we hear them and that’s where we want to help them and accompany in their investment journey. 

Reggie: Great! For everyone that don’t have a Moomoo account yet, they should sign up. 

Gavin: Yes, please! 

Reggie: Thanks for joining us today.

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We have three questions that we ask everyone. It’s just a standard question for every single guest, not as finance related. 

Gavin: No problem. 

Reggie: Please share your perspective. Number one is what is a core life principle that you hold closely to? 

Gavin: Something that I hold very closely even right now to date is always to learn as much as possible. Reason is with this era or even before that, every day, things are moving so fast, and for me, even right now, today, I’m learning something every day. My ethos is always to learn as much as possible and make it a different day every day. That’s why with all this experience that I accumulate and also the knowledge that I have, I hope that we can value add to clients. Even for me, myself is to value add in terms of me, myself because I’m always curious about many things. Interestingly for me, myself I never graduated with a financial degree. I graduated with an aerospace degree.

Aeronautical. So with this aeronautical degree, I took this up partly because I was so curious about aeroplanes and thereafter I was so curious about how financial people work. I look at movies, you have the traders, dealers, so many things. Even right now for more than 15 years in this line, I’m still learning. I’m still learning everyday. 

Reggie: Okay, that’s good. Number two is what is a personal finance advice that you feel needs to be further propogated? 

Gavin: Of course, learn as early as possible. Market will always be moving and there will always be ample opportunities, especially looking at such a time right now. There’s so many opportunities, and sometimes with all these opportunities, learning, understanding or having access to the correct information with the correct company, or even the correct source is so important. So to me, learn early and there’ll be all the help and there will be many firms that will be there to be able to assist from there.

Reggie: Cool. Okay. Which part of your life are you giving additional focus on now? 

Gavin: I got to say so right now, it’s work. FUTU Singapore was launched officially 8th of March. I joined FUTU somewhere in November last year… busy in helping out, in setting up the office. After that, enhancing the platform and thanks to the support of all clients, we managed to gain a huge traction just solely in Singapore itself. Just in three months, we have more than 100,000 paying clients. For me, at least on my this part of life is how to payback to clients or rather contribute back to clients in terms of enhancing their investment journey and yeah, trying to make it even a better platform. 

Reggie: Cool. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. 

Gavin: Thanks a lot.