Chris Bootle’s [OES S01E06]

Reggie: Must all entrepreneurs have big crazy ideas? Or have some serious skills that others don’t? Is there a way to kind of be an entrepreneur without taking all the risk? I think many of us want to give things a shot, but when should we venture on our own? When should we seek a co-founder or should we just join a founding team? 

This is pretty complicated and nuanced. But more importantly, I hope you do it. Introducing Chris, Ex-general Manager of Edible Garden City, a social enterprise focused on horticulture, education and rehabilitation of cities. He is a great friend of mine and I knew him for a long time. He joined the Edible Garden City team when they could barely afford a sink. They literally built their own sink with PVC pipes. I brought him on to share a different perspective of joining a founding team, being stuck between founders and a team, building something that isn’t exactly his own brainchild. I’m sure many of you guys will be in his shoes and I hope you can learn many great juice today. So welcome to Entrepreneurshit Show!

Chris: Armored vehicles, and in front of the armored vehicles, there was like ambulances, there are police cars, there were like 12 vehicles in the farm. I was like… what the hell is going on? As I walked closer, I see my colleague, I won’t reveal his name. But he was lying in a stretcher, his eyes were bloodshot and he looked very dazed. He was incoherent, he couldn’t understand anything I was saying. I was like, “Dude, what’s going on, man?” And he was covered with… he was basically bleeding on his elbows and legs and stuff. 

Later I found out that he ran into the nearby… there was a children’s nursery close by, like in our neighbor compound. He went there, he started screaming and he said that people with parangs chasing him and he ran. He climbed over the fence, ran into some private estate houses close by, did the same thing and then ran back into our compound and he went into the finance office, and I think he just freaked out and sat on the chair. 

Reggie: Pretty wild.

Chris: That was pretty wild and next thing I knew, the police took him away. They said, “We will not reveal anything until… we’ll let you know what happens.” But basically long story short, we never saw him again. 

Reggie: You never saw him again?

Chris: We never saw him again! The police took him away and we never knew what happened. And basically we terminated his contract. 

Reggie: Not everyday you have a SWAT team, trying to SWAT a farm!

Chris: This wasn’t any normal farm. This was a social enterprise and you know the founder Bjorn, he has a very good heart, he really wants to make a change in the world. His vision is that using farming as a way to do social good. This guy that we hired, he was an ex-prison offender. We wanted to see how we can integrate this gentleman into society by giving him value. It is actually pretty good because the first year that he was in there, he is like the Hulk. Completely ripped and he loves doing the heavy lifting and all that. Actually he was contributing a lot during the first year that he was working. That answers the reason why he’s in the company and we did see some positive change. 

Reggie: How was it like working with him? I mean, not just not the… 

Chris: I did enjoy working with him.

Reggie: Why I ask because I think a lot of people paint this very negative picture of prisoners and offenders. But we’re all humans, we all make mistakes. I just want you to share your experience working with him. 

Chris: He was a very humble guy. He knew that he didn’t want to go back to prison. You could tell that he was striving to be a better person and turnover a new leaf. He is experienced in boxing, so actually it was quite fun. We actually had… he taught me how to box and we did training together. It was fun! It was really fun working with him. He’s just like one of us!

Reggie: I think based on what you’ve talked about, you said that you’re not very interested in a lot of the social stuff. Not that you’re not interested, but you’re not as vested. But it’s a founder thing. Like your founder kind of made you guys all do it because it’s a founder vision. How was it like working with founders like that? 

Chris: Maybe to be more specific, the founder Bjorn, how is it like working with him? Man, what a pain!

Reggie: He gets it! 

Chris: Don’t worry, he knows, it’s a love hate thing. To put it simply, the grander his visions are, the more scary it is for the people trying to execute it. Because for him, everything is possible. And if you ask, “Oh my God, how do you get there?” There’s a billion other steps to get there. The struggle that we always have is that… dude, stop over promising. I know you’re a good sales man and I know you want to save the world and change the world, but we all have our jobs we need to do, for the bread and butter, for income to come in. A lot of your visionary things takes time, takes investment, like us trying to do both at the same time, it puts a lot of stress on the team. So yeah, it’s always… every day is a struggle to put it simply. Balancing that reality and idealism. 

Reggie: But do you then see yourself as an entrepreneur?

Chris: Yeah, for sure. I started selling… at home I had a lot of random books that people donated. As a kid, I think I was like five or six years old. I was hmm… no one’s doing anything with these books, let me try to sell them. In Primary 1, I sold them to my classmates, 10 books for $2 or something like that. I do think I have some entrepreneurial traits. But I’ve tried a few random projects, I don’t think I have as much of a risk appetite as many of these founders do. Maybe that’s where I am, I find that balance. I understand what it takes to be an entrepreneur and help execute the vision. I’m not like super hardcore. Maybe at this point in time, I haven’t found that thing that I would say I would be able to go all in with my own money and everything yet. 

Reggie: How hardcore can it get? Just help us understand. 

Chris: Like working with Bjorn?

Reggie: What is some something that you… after you come into the meeting, it’s like we’re going to do this. Then you’ll be like, I’m quitting. 

Chris: That’s every week man, that’s every week! I give you an example, hiring of the autistic beneficiaries was one of them. He really wanted to do it, he was like… let’s hire 10 of them! And we were like… okay! First and foremost, you’re going to need… operationally you’re going to need someone to manage these guys and they’re all 10 very different people. At that point we were just starting out our farm. So we ourselves didn’t know what the hell we were getting ourselves into. We need to first build up our farm, got processes ready and stuff. And he was like… no, just hire them and we’ll figure it out. That was really tough. The next one year was just like, we’re dying and on top of that, because at that point It was just hard to manage them cause some of them are slower than getting a machine. So you have to balance. I just want to buy a machine that can replace all of these jobs. You have to then balance this really tricky situation. So I would say that was probably the hardest thing to manage.

Reggie: I just want to put it out there that we’re not trying to critic, we’re not social critics, we’re just trying to share our personal experience. Don’t send hate message. But yeah okay. From there, it feels like… do you always think that these kinds of grand visions don’t play out or is there a scenario where you don’t agree? But then turns out once he insisted and things play out.

Chris: I do think it’s both. There are cases where his ideas or decisions don’t play out and it doesn’t make financial sense and we have to kill it. Therefore, that’s why he needs people to help him see that. There are many times also that I agree that the vision, the founder’s vision is so big and so wide that we don’t see it. The people on the ground… honestly, we have no idea and many of these takes five, 10 years to realize. 

One example I can give is the Funan project. At Funan Mall we have a rooftop there, and at the start we were invited to pitch for it and run the place. After I did the math, I was like… honestly it won’t make money. So let’s just not do it because we are already so lean, our team is dying and we are going to have to split ourselves in two, but we’re not willing to hire any more people. By then Bjorn was like… no, let’s do it. I was like, fine! I don’t know how but fine. We just have to do it and I know it’s hard cause I’m managing the guys on the ground and they’d be like, “Dude, what are you doing? Why are you asking us to go there? It’s such a waste of time, we’re not making money and have to deal with this for the next few years.” 

But anyway, long story short, we did it. Three, four years later, we start to see that whatever Bjorn had wanted to do with the vision, with getting people interested as a space to market, urban farming actually started to kick in. The returns came in and not just in financial value immediately, but as a marketing value in a much longer time span.

That was one instance where I realized that sometimes we have to trust the crazy vision and we have to just push forward and keep moving. Bjorn is always right, you have to keep doing something different all the time. 

Reggie: Being the number two in the farm, how was it like managing the guys? Exactly what you said just now, it’s a bit crazy. The visionary wants something done and you got to tell everybody that. Everybody’s like, “这个是什么？(Chinese, What is this?)  What’s going on? So how was it managing the team kind of experience like for you? 

Chris: Very, very, very difficult. First, I myself must be convinced. A lot of times I’m not. I think that particular experience was to be honest a bit tricky in my entire time managing. The backstory is I joined as a volunteer. I joined because what I saw was happening was their systems associated… they are using calculators to press like hand-writing invoices…. dude, there’s something called Excel. When I joined it was to help them improve certain things. Somehow they saw that I had a certain value to contribute and they promoted me to management. He promoted me and so it was a position that I was blast in, I wasn’t fully prepared for that. I didn’t have the experience so it was even harder because I was struggling with… I don’t even know what, how to manage?

So that was very tough time for me. But in short, I guess I succeeded to some extent just by doing my best in whatever I needed to do, I did it and people could see that. They knew I was trying my best. And I don’t know, maybe there wasn’t anyone else better in the team to be honest. So, you just have to deal with it? 

But in terms of management style, I guess it was fairly straightforward. Like I have no ego, this is what job that needs to be done, let’s try to do it. Let’s try to figure it out, let’s all come together. No hierarchy, nothing. Let’s just make it happen. If we can’t, we’ll go back to the crazy founder and say, “You know, we need to maybe delay this or need your help in some things.” Bjorn was helpful as well in moderating that.

Reggie: How was the experience propagating this no hierarchy structure?

Chris: So in fact, the irony is I had to bring in some structure, even though I preferred the no structure style. We were dealing with the founding team that was very idealistic and they had very strong values. I was the second gen and we had to be a bit more commercial, because most of our clients were commercial. There’s a bit of tension because the founding team couldn’t get along with the commercial values. When a client wants something to look pretty, but founding team wanted things to be sustainable, ecological. They didn’t want to follow these processes and stuff so it was quite tough. 

I don’t like following processes or hierarchy, but I guess at some point we had to create a hierarchy. And I started to realize that as your organization grows, it is… to be honest, Singaporeans, many of them, many of us can’t deal with no hierarchy. They still need to be told, they like to be given very clear cut boundaries in order to function well. I think it really suits a certain skill and certain kind of culture, but it’s not beneficial for everybody.

Reggie: So you’ve moved on from Edible Garden. 

Chris: Yeah. 

Reggie: You joined another team to do something else. In between you tried different stuff. How was it like working with foreigners? Because you said Singaporeans specifically, right? Because my experience working with foreigners is very different also. It’s a very different culture, the way they do things. Think Singaporean’s are a bit more framed up. Everything must be like… ah, like that. Just kind of curious on your experience working with foreigners or other people in general.

Chris: My current project with Bootle’s, my team consists of Ben, our founder from UK, Angharad, the Butchery Director from UK, Gypsy, Culinary Director from California and Tony, the Marketing Head from South Africa. What I observe is that they are very direct and also quite flexible. As long as you get something done, it doesn’t really matter how you do it. And communication is quite key. You have the right to tell the founder that you disagree. Compared to the Singaporean culture, a lot of passive aggressiveness. 

Reggie: I know. What is the kind of experience about passive aggressiveness?

Chris: Like on one hand, they expect you to do… like Singaporean mindset, they want cheap, good and fast. If you can’t provide that, they expect that of you and of the team. But reality is that something has to give. I guess for people who… or rather the current team, they understand that you choose. If you want good and fast, then it’s usually not cheap and they’re willing to often pay for it.

Reggie: How’s your experience working with these kind of people that are paid a premium to do that job? 

Chris: Not marketing for the company or anything, but I think our guys are being paid above market rate for similar jobs.

Reggie: Drop the job link, sign up to join Bootle’s.

Chris: My observation is that… to give the context, we have chefs, we have farmers, our people hired as these roles and what’s the third one… butchers. All these sort of structures are not ready. The shop is being renovated so everybody’s doing different roles right now. Some of the farmers are doing operations…

Reggie: I know, I went there and just two chest freezers and you guys open up the shop already. Some creates, very start-upy, very cool stuff. 

One of the chef is doing photography and social media. So everyone is wearing multiple hats. I realized that everyone has this ability to cross work in different areas. Their initiative level is way off the charts and that’s something I haven’t really seen before. People are going 200%, people are very helpful and there’s always going to be an internal talk about unhappiness about certain things. But end of the day, everyone is…. I find them like a superstar team and they’re really easy to work with because there’s so much help and initiative going on. It makes work very seamless. Whereas, if somebody doesn’t take initiative, you have to guide them and tell them what to do, that’s such a paint. 

In this whole mess, I think it kinds of represents your life in some ways. I know you for so long, it’s like you went to Australia study… and then you try all these different things. I think along the way, the whole family wasn’t the most supportive. I’m curious, could you share a little bit more about that part?

Chris: I went to Australia to study Aerospace Engineering.

Now, the reason why I went to Australia, I think there’s two parts to it. I definitely felt that I couldn’t stand Singapore anymore. I couldn’t! I was like, “Oh man, this education system doesn’t work for me.” I just wanted to get out of Singapore ASAP. I was doing engineering in Singapore. I didn’t want to do NTU (Nanyang Technological University), NUS (National University of Singapore) engineering. That’d be so boring. But I found a gateway and I did Aerospace Engineering in Australia. 

The second thing was I found out that it was really… where I was studying was really close to the beach. Of course I didn’t tell my family that. I just wanted to have a nice escape, to be in nature and all that.

I graduated from Aerospace Engineering, I barely scrapped through because to be honest I don’t think I was good at it and I wasn’t really interested in it fully. When I came back to Singapore, I started a cafe, again it wasn’t really part of the plan. I was just helping them out because they really needed help. So my family was extremely pissed off. Because my sisters, my mom, they funded my university. It wasn’t cheap. My mum said, “What are you doing? You are an engineer and you’re now a coffee boy.” 

Reggie: Exact words. 

Chris: You’re a coffee boy, you’re not earning a salary. And I worked really hard. I was doing like 20 hour days and would come home and collapse. Like literally there was one day, I literally came home, dropped my bag, stumbled to the living room, just lay on the towels on the floor and I passed out, I fell asleep. That was how tired I was every day. And then she was like, “Why are you working so hard? See if you have a proper job, corporate job, engineer as an engineer, you wouldn’t be so tired.” My sister was who funded most of it, she was giving me shit cause she came from a corporate background and for her, whatever I was doing was just being irresponsible.

I was young, I am the youngest in the family. So it’s just you being a young irresponsible kid, wasting our family’s money, wasting all the time and energy that we put in to save for you to study. There was a lot of that noise and I completely understood how they felt and I don’t blame them for it. It was just difficult to do what I wanted to do during those few years. So that’s what happened family wise, mainly these two people. 

Reggie: So how’s the family sentiments now?

Chris: Completely changed! My mom’s like advocating for me to her friends, my sister also, she was like, “Do you want to be a private chef? Do you want to…” She’s giving me all these lobangs (Singapore, colloquial, A good deal or opportunity) and opportunities, connecting me with people.

Reggie: What do you think changed in this process? 

Chris: I guess at some point I somewhat succeeded in my field. So even though I was a farmer, I wasn’t just a farmer. I rose through the ranks, I added value. I was… in a corporate way, I was like a management. 

Reggie: I’m a chief farmer. 

Chris: Chief farmer, CFO. 

Reggie: Chief Farming Officer okay, mai siao siao! (Hokkien, don’t fool around)

Chris: They saw me on media, the papers and all that. Receiving awards, mostly on behalf of the company, not personally. But they’re like… oh, okay. I guess this guy is doing okay. I guess they understood and they saw that I was happy. They saw that I was… not widely perceived me to be like just a farmer or just a coffee boy. I was more than that, so I guess they understood. I still get shit from him once in a while. My mom’s like, “Why you work so hard? Why don’t you join the army? They pay better.” It happens. 

This is interesting, right? Because I just never gave up, I just got to be stubborn. I know they don’t understand, I just have to stick to what I believe in. Thankfully they do believe right now. 

Reggie: Cool. And I know in-between this journey, relationship kinda went nuts also. 

Chris: I was in a relationship for five years with my partner who was super supportive. We met when I was… you know me at that period of time. I was figuring out who I was, I was traveling because I didn’t know who I wanted to be, what I wanted to do at that point of time. I didn’t really want to be stuck in a relationship at that point of time as well. I was in this soul searching phase and she saw me through that and also being a very poor farmer, struggling with starting out, having very low confidence, to being fairly… when I was at management level then I was quite stable. But then I sold my soul to the company, I was working crazy hours again. 

She was with me, supporting me and understanding my journey the whole time. But eventually at some point I could sense that she wasn’t getting the love and attention that she needed. I was just spending way too much time at work and I felt like… I guess intrinsically, I just prioritized work over her and I didn’t know why. Just like an intuition thing, it was hard for me to prioritize her and spend time with her. Whenever I did have a little bit of rest time, I was just so tired. I didn’t really want to… in terms of social activities, what I enjoyed doing and what she enjoyed doing there were many similarities there, but more things I didn’t fully enjoy doing. You know, maybe just chilling at home watching TV. I preferred to go to the library and read books or just be by myself. So I think there was a lot of tension because if whatever little time I had, I couldn’t even enjoy that with her. I couldn’t spend quality time with her and we started to drift a little bit from there. 

Also I think I started to… when I finally started to realize what I wanted to do, I realized that it really fully wasn’t aligned with what she wanted. She wanted to settle, to have a stable family, something rock solid and I knew what my personality was like. Like you said, I’m all over the place. I love the craziness, I love adventure, I love uncertainty. I kinda didn’t want to settle and probably that was… I felt very guilty for not being able to provide that for her and to her. I think one of the biggest mistakes I made was not communicating this feeling to her. I just felt I have disappointed her in the last few years and I don’t think I can… and I didn’t want to disappoint her any further. 

Without communicating this to her properly, I just called it off without any warning. She was absolutely devastated because I kind of think that she would have accommodated and accepted it even at an uncertainty. There was just a… how would I put it… on hindsight I think I would have done things differently, in terms of how I would have communicated my feelings, or asked her how she felt. But it is what it is. How I felt two, three years ago is very different from how you think and feel right now.

I guess to sum it up, I would say a big part is how I felt. I cannot explain fully in terms of in a very practical way, but it’s just a gut feeling that some things were not aligned. I just was… in terms of value I was moving towards a more naturalistic, tree-hugger kind of lifestyle and I guess she just was more comfortable with something more stable, more certain and maybe that’s where I couldn’t reconcile.

But it was painful because everything else… she’s a really sweet and lovely girl and I do enjoy her company. It’s not like we were on bad terms.

Reggie: That is really part of being entrepreneur, right? To recognize that the work hustle is pretty nuts and your life is very dynamic and crazy. The entrepreneur partner has to be entrepreneurial also, if not it’s going to be pretty tough. 

Chris: Or at least understanding of what is going to be like. 

Reggie: What happened after that? 

Chris: What happened was… every time I don’t want to get into a relationship, I can’t do one. 

There was one event that was happening at the farm and I bumped into Cheryl. Long story short, she was there not so much for the event. She was there cause she wanted to visit the farm, so she tagged along with a friend. When we first met, I just felt something, a strong connection with her. We briefly spoke about some of the activities that are within our scope of field. She’s very interested in the environmental stuff, like climate change related stuff and nature as well. It was this like, there was this connection straight away. It wasn’t immediate, like I felt something. But then only when I went back home and a few days later, it just started to sink in and I was like… this is something. There’s just a certain alignment, a gut feeling that tells me that there’s a very strong… like the force is strong. There’s a strong resonance with values and the more we got to know each other, it wasn’t very long… but it was just like, okay, I kinda know this is the person I want to be with. It was very fast.

Reggie: You’ve shared a lot and a lot of crazy stories. I just want to know why do you still do what you do after so many nuts shit shows? I know way more… 

Chris: I’ve been in this trajectory of hustling really hard. After three, four years or two to four years of a particular project, I go…I’m so tired, I’m so burnt out, I don’t want to do this ever again! And then I take a couple of months of sabbatical, a break, I completely zone out. And then I am like… I’m so bored now, I need to do something crazy again. 

I was just thinking about this today and I realized that I guess I start to have a different perspective now of going through the suffering of pain. This is a quote by this yogi guy called Sadhguru. Pain is just a way of feedback, it’s how you perceive that pain that is important. People perceive that pain as suffering, but you don’t have to think of this pain as suffering. You can think of it as a learning experience of one that you can turn it around and become a better person. So when I go through a crazy time, when I experience the tension with my founder these days, I just tell myself like… you know what? I need to reframe this challenging situation, or painful situation, or these crazy hours that I’m working. How do I take it positively? 

When I think back, okay, let’s break it down. If I wasn’t doing this crazy thing back in the day we are all hunter gatherers, what would we be doing? You still have to go through the challenge of pain, of hunting, hiding in some cave, waiting for some bull to shoot. It’s not easy as well. Nothing is easy! So why don’t we just accept that it’s not going to be easy and make the best out of it.

Reggie: I think Chris is an interesting guy because he’s a good friend of mine as you can tell, there are a lot more things that we can talk about. For the sake of you guys, we keep it sufficiently interesting, not crazily juicy. Next time! 

He’s an interesting personnel because he’s not exactly like founder, but he’s quite entrepreneurial because at the least he’s like a co-founder or he’s like founding team. I think as an entrepreneur you don’t always need to have your own ideas. You can go around and find worthy causes or worthy projects to participate in. That is also a very beautiful way to be an entrepreneur, because honestly you think everyday you’ve got interesting ideas? Everyday you’ve got some revolutionary thing to work on? It’s not always the case, but you can always participate on someone’s interesting idea and I think Chris shared a lot of interesting, a lot of good stories for lack of better way to put it. I hope you learnt something from him. 

And I want you to know that I think it is very brave of him to talk about the relationship part. He’s not a douchebag, not like change girlfriend like that okay? It’s a lot more complicated but what I wanted to really show was being entrepreneur, a lot of things change and some things that we thought could be there forever turns out that probably that’s not the reality.

Thanks for staying all the way here and Chris has something additional for all of you. One last question. If someone wants to be an entrepreneur, participate in entrepreneurship kind of thing, what is one advice you would give them? You shared a lot. 

Chris: There’ll be two things. The first, it’s going to be a journey. Whatever you do, just try first. The second thing is, maybe don’t need to be caught up in the whole glory of entrepreneurship, like the whole Silicon Valley exit plans, sell your company. It’s a journey about how you figure stuff out, solve problems and end of the day if you create enough value, you do enough good stuff to people, you will get the value that you deserve. It is in a form of finances, in a form of recognition. If you don’t get that, you will get it later on. The journey might be… you might suffer for many years, this suffering might be 10, 20 years, you never know! For you getting like very little money, your learnings will always carry you. It’s like compounding learnings, it will eventually pay off at the end of it. 

Reggie: Like compounding earnings, compounding learning. 

Chris: Exactly. 

Reggie: Okay. Cool. Thanks. Thanks for sharing. Thank you. 

All good man. 

Chris: Thank you.

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